Women in Confidence with Mattison Grey - Women In Confidence

Episode 69

The Gap between Mediocre and Masterful with Mattison Grey

This week I am introducing you to Mattison Grey - an Executive Coach who is fascinated by the gap between mediocre and masterful.

Mattison Grey, M.Ed, MMC, CPPC, is the founder and president of Greystone Guides. She is a professional business and leadership coach, mental skills consultant and coach trainer. Mattison is certified by the International Association of Coaching, is a Certified Positive Psychology Coach and an Emotional Culture Deck Practitioner. Mattison is the co-author of The Motivation Myth.

Since 1997, she has been coaching teams and individuals and consulting in organizations in the areas of leadership, communication, coaching, teamwork, and high performance. She has trained and coached high-level executives, functional managers, police officers and cadets, entrepreneurs, athletes, and artists in a variety of organizations and settings. Mattison is continually exploring the art and science of human performance and high-value coaching. As a professionally certified business coach, Mattison has helped thousands of people have extraordinary lives and businesses.

For more information about Mattison please use the following links:

FB: https://www.facebook.com/mattison.grey

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattisongrey/

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mattisongrey/

Website: https://www.mattisongrey.com

Hello, I'm Vanessa, the host of Women In Confidence. Welcome and thanks for listening. I designed this podcast to appeal to working women who want to understand what confidence is, what you can do to build (or rebuild) your confidence and then maintain it. I interview amazing women who have genuine stories to tell about their journey through life and how they manage the ups and downs of life. My vision is for my listeners to try something that has worked for my guests and if it changes their lives then I feel that the podcast has been a positive contribution to the world.

If you enjoyed this episode or any of the Women In Confidence episodes, please like, rate, review and share widely so that more fabulous women can find us. Also check out my Instagram and TikTok pages for more content and confidence boosting inspiration.

I hope 2023 has going well for you - I can't believe how quickly 2023 is going.

I have also just launched a podcast booking agency called Boom Podcast Agency The agency is a concierge female-run podcast booking agency that specialises in helping female entrepreneurs, thought leaders, and women in business reach a wider audience. Reach out to me or check out the website for more information.

Vanessa xx


Mattison Grey


I know there's a whole world of podcasts out there. I know, because I'm always listening to new podcasts. So I'm absolutely thrilled that I can spend time in your head for a little while and that you've chosen to listen to women in Confidence. So this week I want you to meet Mattison Grey, who is an amazing executive coach and founder of her own business.

With over 20 years of experience, she has trained and coached high level executives, entrepreneurs, athletes, and artists in variety of organizations. And if you're interested in performing at the highest level, understanding what really drives your performance in creating an environment for success, then I highly recommend you listen through to the end.

ards. In this episode, we'll [:

I recommend hiring her. She's a great person who does great things for her clients. The program that she tailored made for me has carried me into a new level of production, and I continue to build on the lessons learned and the experiences of working with a high-end professional executive coach who cares about her client's success.

So Mattison, hello and welcome to Women Incompetence and thanks ever so much for joining me this morning and it's morning here, but afternoon where you are. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited and if you just wanna tell the listeners where you are cuz I think I get the biggest kick out of this.

art. I am near Houston, Texas[:

Yeah, it's a super question. I think I have a two-part answer. One having confidence to me means living in my clarity and living in, in my values, and also in my optimism. I tend to be extremely optimistic. So there's that. I think all of that is. Around has to do with my level of clarity that I have around what's important to me or what I really want, what my values are, all those things.

how does that show up? Yeah, [:

And it's really different as you know, from toxic positivity or positivity. I'm not always positive and I don't believe in that. I don't believe in just think positive in those kinds of things, but I, I do have a level of optimism that. I, I don't, I don't know where, where it came from or how it happened, but I just always think things are gonna work out no matter what.

ic for other people as well, [:

Yeah. Yeah. You also mentioned Madison about values and really knowing who you are, so you are confident in those. Have you always known your values or have they taken time to mature and really come to the surface? I haven't always known what they were. They've always been there, but they were, you know, kind of covered up.

So as I started on my coaching journey and got coached and started to learn what was important to me for what's really important to me versus what I thought was important to me, they started to. Become clear, and then I was able to, for lack of a better word, really insert them into my world because I'm, you know, working on my own.

So I don't have competing [:

So my biggest, my biggest value is funny. My biggest value in, in my work is, is add value everywhere. That's my guiding, like add value everywhere. My second one is keep my word. I'm ne notorious for keeping my word. If I have not kept my word, something is wrong. Like send help, right? And but then there's that piece about I won't get, I won't really give my word if I'm no, I can't keep it right?

evel of clarity about what's [:

I just believe in people and they get it. And when I learned about this, this is interesting. When I first started to uncover this, when I was getting coaching, I was like, yeah, but everyone believes in everyone, right? And the people that I was talking with were like, no, no, people don't believe in people.

see. The opportunity in this [:

So also, you know, I don't know if integrity is a value, but it's, it's important to me to have high integrity and keep my word and do what I say I'm gonna do and those kinds of things. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned coaching a couple of times, and so you've had coaching. Mm-hmm. What brought you to be coached.

Yeah, it's a kind of a fun story. So way back when I was in my twenties, I was doing something that I didn't really like. I wasn't happy, I was struggling with it, and I was raised in the, in the Midwest of the United States. And what we're taught in the Midwest of the United States is you can make anything work if you work hard enough at it.

says in her introduction, I [:

Turns out what the, what to do with the rest of your life was a weekend seminar where people got coached. We sat in the room all together and people got coached. Now here's the, the funny thing is, this is in 1997, before we have the word, before we have the profession. We didn't have any of this in 1997.

So I went to this weekend seminar, and when I saw what they were doing, I was like, I don't know how, when, where, but there's something here for me. When I saw what they were doing with people, and that's how it. How it started. So that was the start of your becoming a coach. Yeah. So I know you, I know you've also, you know, you've got accreditations and now that's what you do.

years from that, that first [:

Okay. And I learned how they were doing it, and I still use a lot of those same tools today. But how it's evolved over the years is I've. Studied a lot of different coaching methods. I've taken a lot of classes and coaching seminars and looked at what, what people are doing that's working and not working.

And what's interesting about how it's evolved is I throw out a lot of things because they don't actually work, and this is really unpopular, but a lot of what people are doing and calling coaching doesn't actually work. So it's a funny thing that I've. I've evolved my coaching practice based on what I see works and left everything behind, everything else behind.

And sometimes I get some [:

So based on that then, and really evolving your practice, so you focus on what works, what doesn't work, how would you define coaching? Yeah, so here's my definition of coaching. Finding out what someone really wants in assisting them to get it. What's the most important word in the sentence though? Oh, finding out, yeah, finding out something really wa what someone really wants in assisting them to get it.

a, B, C. And then you spend [:

You must see that I imagine quite a lot in your line of work. That is what happens because my job first and foremost is to help them clear this confusion up. The confusion of what they think they want versus what they really want. Because people make decisions conceptually, and it sounds like a good idea.

My, my dad was a doctor. I should be a doctor. I'm good at math and science. I should be an engineer. All these ways that people make decisions conceptually, but it's not what they really want. It's what they think they want. So people get to age 35, 38, being an engineer, and they wake up to, this is not what I really want.

nds simple, but it's pretty, [:

But we're unfulfilled. If that happens, that means it's what you thought you wanted. It was conceptual. It wasn't what you really wanted. If it was what you really wanted and you got it, you would feel fulfilled. So this happens everywhere all the time. This is why I have a job. People are making conceptual decisions from what they want for lunch all the way to what am I on this planet to do, and everywhere in between.

sets me apart from a lot of [:

And I guess the first step is they found you. Yeah. Which is, which do the first, A big first step is accepting that what they have is no longer fulfilling them or doesn't feel right, or all those things. So actually they've taken probably the most difficult step and that's actually contacting you, but I wanna talk about Then they find out what they really want and it's a very different them essentially they have to.

stion is, but that's quite a [:

It's hard. I imagine, I mean, I've probably been through it, but talk to me how, what your views are on that. So I think it can be hard. I think that's true and I think I know what question you're asking, so I'll, I'll just say some things if that's okay. Yeah. So when we, when we go to the kind of the. Side of the spectrum of what am I on the planet to do?

What's my core motivation? What's my brilliance? Right? Because I believe everyone has their own brilliance, and it's unique to you and people can't find it on their own. You have to have some help finding your brilliance. There's some reasons for that, but when we have a conversation about what's your core motivation and what's your brilliance, and that comes clear, there's some clarity about that.

to happen is, although it's. [:

So it's not wasted, it's not lost, it's just a new, in a way, new application of the, some of the same things. You said something that was really interesting, so I wrote it down and you said about finding your brilliance and you can't do that on your own. Mm-hmm. What? Why'd you say that? Because in my world, your brilliance is the thing you do [00:16:00] that when you do it, people are amazed, but to you it looks like nothing.

So you've never given it any stock. You've never assigned any value to it. And so it's def and because in my world you can't see your own. It has to get reflected back to you. So that creates a double bind. If you don't give it any stock, you don't assign any value. But people try to. Reflect it back to you, you don't let it in.

So it creates this double bind or kind of paradoxical situation where people are trying to tell you, but you can't see it. Once we kind of lift that veil and allow people to see it and then train them, you have to really, we, you have to really train people to let that in because we don't give it any value.

re brilliant at that. And we [:

Because I'm sat here thinking of work situations I've been in and I'm like, I will be the one who dismissed, you know, all the effort I've put in. And the blokes will just be like, Hey, yeah, I look at me like I did a great job. Yeah, well done for the pat on the back. Yeah. I just, I've noticed that, but do you notice that?

I noticed that. I noticed that that's a different thing, but I do know that men nor men nor women, see their own brilliance. But because of the different ways that we account for our success or our, our actions or our results. That conversation happens differently with men and women. It's a, that real simple psychological idea of internal locus of control versus external locus of control.

pretty easy idea, right? So [:

But yeah, I mean, I think in, in. It causes, the phenomenon causes a little more issues for women, but it's not based on, it's not based on gender at all. Mm-hmm. Well, given that, so again, from my belief is that the constructs of business today and leadership are still fairly male dominated, and that external, you know, pat on the back or taking the credit is something that is.

nd how do you coach them and [:

Yeah, so two part answer. One is clarity. So most of us are running around without a, a large amount of clarity. We're just not, we're confused about things and confusion. When people are confused, they underperform male, female, anyone. So they're, they're, the first answer is we've gotta get some clarity about what's important to you, what you're really trying to do, what you really want.

share credit when it was us.[:

So what? What we do is we don't really identify what we actually did. Then we add some judgment and now it looks like nothing that we're doing is working, or we didn't really contribute to that in the story. I don't know if that's making sense, but that's what I think happens is all kind of balled up into the same problem.

Which is, we don't have any, we don't have a lot of clarity. We dismiss when people try to give us credit or try to show us our brilliance, and then even when we do create something, accomplish something, or you know, get some results, we push it off and don't really identify, Hey, I did that clarity. I wanna talk about that because it's a word you've used a lot and.

ly through my own experience [:

I don't need hard work to get clarity. How do you help clients to get clarity? So I use my curiosity to elicit and follow their curiosity and then, and then feed that back to them. So when I was talking about what's conceptual and what's real, right, so I use a tool. The tool of curiosity. So I use mine.

I don't, and the way I use mine is I don't make a, I don't make any assumptions about that. I know anything. I know nothing and I don't have to know anything, right? And so that is a little bit different than some coaches, right? Some coaches think they have to know everything or know what someone should do.

I don't. [:

You can get clarity. It just takes a long time without outside help. So somebody's listening to this Madison, they've listened to the podcast and they're like, okay, I wanna get some clarity. What's the one thing that they can just do at home? Then you need a buddy. Who, who doesn't have an agenda and you have to ask them to watch to see what lights.

lking about getting that new [:

It's not what they really want. Now you can't see your own lights because you're stuck in your own head. Right, you're making decisions with your head versus your heart versus your curiosity. So the answer to the question is, get a buddy who doesn't care about the answers, and ask them to tell you, does it, does it light me up?

Now, you can't get someone who cares because they're, they can't stay curious enough to really see for sure. So this is how I'm valuable to people, is I can see what lights you up and I can feed it back to you in a way that you can get it. So the analogy I like to use is it's like you're in a box, right?

genda. Part of that is their [:

Part of that is their inability to communicate that clearly. So what I can do is I can come up to the outside of box and read you your instructions in a way that you can hear them and you can take some action. I don't know if that's helpful. Yeah, that is. I get it. Yeah. If you have somebody who's close to you, friends, family, or something, they're all, like you say, they're wrapped up in their own egos.

They've got emotional attachment to you. They're probably out for their best interest, even though they don't, it doesn't come across. But that's just human beings. Yeah, I get that. So the idea being is get, get somebody who is impartial. Or doesn't know anything as you were saying. And I think that's really interesting.

You're saying as a coach you don't know anything, because I imagine with coaches, and I've met coaches and I'm smiling for those who can't see this is, there's that flipping big ego there and it's like, I am a coach, I am the expert and I'm going to fix you. Whereas you take a really different approach and I think that's very refreshing to hear.

Yeah. Have you [:

I get it. I know people that had terrible experiences. I personally haven't because. You know, I can tell in the first 15 minutes if they're gonna be curious, curious enough for, for me, and that's a short list, let's be honest. But that is part of the issue that's going on. I don't know if it's around the world or just here in America, but part of the issue is that people at this point have had bad experiences with coaches, either professional coaches or people in their organizations who want to use the word coaching.

And then it goes wrong. [:

Right? So if you go in and talk to your husband, your boyfriend, your, your girlfriends, your. Somebody closest to you, the in the back of their mind, subconsciously, whatever the issues are. The question in the back of the mind is, what does this mean for me? Right? There's not enough curiosity there. There's too much familiarity.

that happens with people is [:

So a really good coach can help you balance that out. Balance out. Okay, that's not working. But what are the, what are the 25 or 30 things you did today that did work? Because we are not paying attention to those. So what eventually happens is we're only paying attention to what's not working, and eventually it looks like nothing's working.

And I think that's where burnout comes from. I don't do much coaching these days, but when I do do it, I really like to do an exercise and it is so, so simple, but sometimes the simple things are the most effective. And I say to my clients, just write down a hundred things that you are really good at, like a hundred, because that's quite a lot of things.

. And I say to [:

And when you're having your moments of self-doubt or lack of confidence, or just self-loathing, go and read this list and remind yourself you've got. This huge list of things that you are really, really good at. And stop programming your brain to focus on the things that you know, you, you just think you are negative at or not so good at.

And it, it's so simple, but it takes a coach to guide somebody to do it. It's not something you naturally sit down and go, I'm going to write a hundred things, but I really like that it's not the way, it's just not the way our brain works. Our brain is not. Built to focus on what's working. Our brain is actually wired to keep us alive and focus on what's not working.

eat exercise for people. And [:

And then they have. They have it in, in their bag or in, you know, when they need it. Mm-hmm. The other, just to build on that, I would suggest that every day at the end of the day, you sit down and take 10 minutes and, and really look at what did you do that day that worked, what did I actually do? That worked because you know what's happening at the end of the day, you're focusing on what didn't work.

So to, to counterbalance that on a, on a daily basis. Start to train yourself to look at, oh, look at all these things. I did that, that it worked today. Well, let's now talk about motivation with your book, the way you co tell me about the book, how did it come about, and a bit about the content and why everybody needs to go and buy this book and read it.

So the, the book is based on [:

Came to me one day and he said, I want to write a book about acknowledgement, but if I write it, it'll just be everything you taught me. Do you wanna write it with me? And I said, yes, of course, because he'd written a couple books. So he knew how to do that. I had no idea. So we we sat down and we wrote the book.

we wrote the book together. [:

May, may be easier if I tell you what acknowledgement isn't. So, acknowledgement isn't compliment praise, champion cheerleading thinking or any of those things. Those are things, and they're important. What acknowledgement is, is stating completed actions or results with a tone of curiosity or appreciation and without judgment and.

This is much more difficult than it sounds because we are, we are story making machines and we love our judgment. But when you ca, when you add your story and your judgment to the quote, unquote feedback for people or feedback for yourself, you can't find the thing, you can't find the completed actions or results.

in the judgment. So the, the [:

And, but a lot of that is around, you know, praise and thanking people and all those things that you say perhaps are not the drivers an acknowledgement. Is where people, maybe what we're seeking, what's actually going to drive performance. So I just wanna let some pick acknowledgement a little bit more and how does, how is that actually practically applied?

s of others. Yeah. So before [:

We've been sold this story that the way you motivate people is you praise them or compliment them or appreciate them. And I'm not saying that that doesn't work. Sometimes what I'm saying is it doesn't work most of the time. But we didn't even, we don't even notice. Okay, so let me ask you a question. If you get a compliment from someone you don't trust implicitly, does it create receptivity or resistance in you?

important? Yeah. I dunno. My [:

Which is what you said. I would. Yeah. Right. So there's resistance, right? Or confusion for what there's Right. So, so praise often because we're not paying attention to what actually happens with people causes confusion or resistance. For what? Or no, not really. Wasn't really that good of a job, right?

Compliments often cause resistance. Appreciation is never about the person. It's always about what the giver appreciates. People are gonna hate me after this conversation, Vanessa, but I'm used to it all. So all these ways that we communicate actually have two problems. One is they're not about the receiver, they're about the giver.

and you don't think you did [:

And sometimes it's not even there because it's our story about what happened, not what actually happened. So here's the example. Across the country, maybe across the world, every day a conversation might go like this. Hey Vanessa, good job on that project with Peterson's Corp. The client's happy, the company made money, the team looks good, and the CEO is thrilled.

ple don't hear that that was [:

So then they start saying, saying things like, and you're at in hr, so you've heard this. They start saying things like, can't they see? Can't people, can't they see what I do around here? Because the communication's not coming through. It's not getting through to them because it isn't about them in honesty.

But if I say to you, Vanessa, you got that project done three days early and a $10,000 under budget, you can say, I did. There's no argument. That's the acknowledgement. The rest is, Ancillary or were not important to you necessarily because what did you actually do? That makes me say good job teams happy CEOs, happy customers happy.

under budget. [:

And you've, you've opened my eyes quite a lot in that, just that very short, you know, we've been talking about acknowledgement for what, seven minutes maybe. You've opened my eyes and thought and I've thought, I've never heard anyone really talk about that and Ha, I'm 50 nearly so like, what has been going on in my life?

that all of our systems are [:

Trying to contribute to people. I get that part. If we really watch, if you really pay attention, they often don't. And it's, I think it's, I think this all happens because, can you, can you identify a system that we live in that is not built on judgment? I, I cannot Judgment good or judgment bad, right? So that's the answer.

yet you've just proved that [:

Communicate and acknowledge. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna move on to something that you've written on your website, cuz I was as I was doing my research, I came across this statement on your website and I hope you remember it's on there. But it says, I'm fascinated by the gap between mediocre and masterful. Yeah.

And it really drew me in cause I'm like, right, I need to understand from Madison what fascinates her and how we then, once we understand that, how can we fill that gap between mediocre and masterful? I am fascinated by it because what, what is the, what is the path from mediocre to masterful? You know, I use that word.

it. I am fascinated by high [:

Versus confusion, receptivity versus resistance. Judgment and systems keep people small. I know that for sure. And so, yeah, what is the journey there? It, it's fascinating to me, and like I said, I do have some ideas about it. I don't have all the answers, but you know, I have some ideas, but mediocre is a form of judgment in many ways.

It's a, it's a school, it's a, I don't know, I dunno the word off the top of my head, but it's like my mediocre. Might be your brilliance, do you know? I just think it, it, it could easily be, and I've been in conversations before with people and that they'll say to me, oh, we just want people to be mediocre cuz they just do and there's an output.

verybody to be masterful and [:

Yeah, sure. I wouldn't, I would definitely wanna argue with that. But I think you made a more important point when you said it's individual, right? So what. And that's where the judgment goes out. It's a, it's a judgmental word, but if, if we don't judge people for where they are, maybe where I feel is mediocre is someone else's masterful.

veryone that goes along with [:

Of meeting people where they are and then bring, and then helping 'em get to where they want to be. It's not my spot to, it's not my place to judge any of that, right? If you say, I wanna go to the moon, And you light up, I'm gonna say, well, let's figure that out. I'm not gonna say, well, you can't go to the moon.

You're 50 years old, and they, they don't take astronauts. You know, you know what I mean? Right. Hmm. Be realistic, Vanessa. Right. I'm gonna say, well, let's go, let's figure that out. Let's, if somebody says, you know, I want, I want, I, I wanna, I don't know what might be mediocre in our, our minds. I want to go from zero to $40,000 a year.

of negativity. We are just a [:

Yeah, so it's a skill. Confidence is a skill, right? Mm-hmm. Optimism is a skill. Learning to pay attention to what you're paying attention to is a skill it teach us all the time we're we don't pay attention to our attention. And then our attention is on mostly what's not working. Right? And we all know that what you put your attention on grows.

we have to teach people that [:

Mental skills coaching in women's rugby and a couple other women's sports, and this is one of the very first things we teach them the women is what's your attention on? Because it's on, it's probably on something that isn't serving them right? They make an error and all of a sudden, this is how it goes.

Oh, I dropped the ball so. In rugby, if you drop the ball, that's bad. Okay? The other team's probably gonna get it. Oh, I dropped the ball. I let my team. Then the next thought is, I let my team down, right? The next thought is, I shouldn't be out here with these girls. And then the next thought after that is, I'm quitting rugby as soon as I get off this field.

Now, if we don't catch that right now, our attention is on. I shouldn't be out here and I'm just, just shouldn't be here. I've let my team down. Now, if the game's still going, this is a real problem. So to teach them to notice, oh, my attention is on something that isn't work, isn't, doesn't serve me right now.

What do I want it [:

High performers step over the things that they do that work all the time, just gonna step over that and not notice it and pay 80% of my attention to what I just, that error I made last week. So, I don't know if I answered your question, but it, these are, they're actually skills, they're mental skills that we can learn and employ to overcome some of these things.

hat you would put into that? [:

And my next question, what's the one question you wish I'd asked you? Oh, that's such a good question. Oh, no. You asked so many good questions. I don't know. I, I really don't. Okay. Maybe, maybe I'll think of it. Go on to the next one. So my last question is, what's the one thing that you are working on at the moment to build confidence?

That's a really interesting question working on at the moment to build confidence. I. It's funny cuz in true human brain form, the answer I have is what's not giving me confidence. Well, I just caught it. Right? So that's the, that's the important part is I just was like, oh. That's what's not giving me confidence.

I did CrossFit for years and [:

Yeah. It makes me very confident when I'm fitter and stronger and, and in that community. So that's the one thing that I'm working on, is overcoming some, some of the logistics that I have here to get. Back to CrossFit. Alright, Madison. We have to wrap this up. I always never, I actually never like ending these conversations cuz I love them so much and this is what lights me up.

If you could, you know, if you are in a room with me talking about podcasting and this podcast, my whole world lights up around me. But yeah, sadly I have to bring this conversation to close. But thank you so much for being on the show and if you can think of the one thing you wish I'd asked you now is your time.

I had a, I had a blast. Hey, [:

Before we wrap up, if you are thinking I'd quite like to be on podcast, it sounds really interesting. It could really help my business grow. I have a really strong message that I want people to hear. Then reach out to my new business, which is called Boom Podcast Agency. So we are gonna be a concierge service that really helps women in business, women entrepreneurs, and women thought leaders to get onto some of the best podcasts in the world.

So that's Boom, podcast agency. Thanks for listening, and until next time.

About the Podcast

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Women In Confidence
The podcast for ambitious working women

About your host

Profile picture for Vanessa Murphy

Vanessa Murphy

Vanessa is a Strategy and HR Consultant and a Podcast Host.
Vanessa got her first proper job in 1998 when she joined as an Officer in the Royal Navy and then after 15 years doing that, she transitioned into senior HR and Culture roles working for organisations all over the world.
She now has 2 strings to her bow....
Firstly, she is an empath, avid people watcher and she likes to observe people when they were operating with confidence and self-belief and learn strategies, tools and techniques from them. She helps women with confidence at work and her Women In Confidence podcast is a way for her to share her knowledge and her network with a wider audience.

Secondly, she has always been fascinated by what makes a company great to work for and now devotes her time to creating workplaces that not only have impressive performance but are also human centred - hint... they are not mutually exclusive. Her Conversations About Company Culture podcast is her way of sharing ways to build great organisations.